The Future of Pakistan: Hamid Mir's Interview

The Future of Pakistan: An Interview with Journalist Hamid Mir
World David Dastych
The New Media Journal: May 8, 2006

A prominent, internationally acclaimed Pakistani journalist, Hamid Mir, was the last newsman to meet and interview Osama bin Laden. In this interview, granted to Dr. Paul L. Williams, Ph.D., the award-winning author of "The Dunces of Doomsday," and David Dastych, an international journalist and former intelligence operative, Mir discusses the political and military situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan, terrorist threats to the USA and Europe and future plans of bin Laden's al-Qaida.

Williams & Dastych: What is the main problem of Pakistan today: national unity, economic inequality, the rise of radical Islamism, or something else?

Hamid Mir: The main problem of Pakistan is lack of real democracy. We have a parliament. But a President in Army uniform is sitting over the parliament. We have a parliamentary form of government in our Constitution. But, in reality, parliament is just like a rubber stamp. The President has all the power. The Constitution says that an Army Chief cannot be involved in politics. But the current Army Chief, General Pervez Musharraf, is sitting in the President's House and addressing the public meetings of his allied political parties. In other words, Musharraf is running a controlled democracy in Pakistan.

I think a democracy controlled by a uniformed army general is not a democracy: it is a sort of modern dictatorship. Pakistan was created by a clean-shaved barrister Muhammad Ali Jinnah through a political struggle. Islamic radicals not only opposed Jinnah but declared him to be an infidel. Army generals never participated in our freedom movement. They were part of the British Army. But, unfortunately, after the independence, these generals grabbed power again and again by taking advantage of the differences within the political forces.

Eleven years of the military rule of General Ayub Khan weakened Pakistan, and the country was further divided when another military dictator General Yahya Khan was in power. Islamic radicals got strength when [yet] another military ruler General Zia hanged Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in 1979 and participated in America's war in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union.

Every military ruler in Pakistan was supported by America and every civil political government in Pakistan faced sanctions from America.

Today, Pakistan is an atomic power but we are facing Islamist insurgency in Baluchistan and Waziristan. The main reason of the insurgency is poverty and illiteracy. Baluch nationalists are being exploited by Indian intelligence operatives based in Afghanistan, while the tribal warriors of North and South Waziristan are fighting against their own army, because they think that Pakistan Army is launching operations against them on the behest of America.

A powerful parliament could solve the problems of Baluchistan and Waziristan through political dialogue. But Musharraf's regime is trying to solve these problems through the gun, because the gun is actually ruling Pakistan.

Williams & Dastych: Does President Pervez Musharraf, with his pro-US policies, still enjoy widespread support among Pakistanis?

Hamid Mir: I think now President Musharraf has also realized that he is becoming unpopular because of his pro-American policies. That is the reason why he is speaking against the Afghan President, Hamid Karzai, on the CNN - - just to prove that he is not an "American agent".

I am sure that both Russian and Iranian intelligence were behind this conspiracy of creating differences between Musharraf and Karzai. A few months back, a top official of Afghanistan's Interior Ministry revealed to me in Kabul that Russia and Iran are providing weapons and money to the Taliban. But we don't have enough courage to speak against them, because they have a very powerful lobby in Afghanistan now. The Afghan official said that Pakistan is a soft target and "we always speak against Pakistan."

Actually, it is the failure of the ISI and the CIA that Russia and Iran have developed good roots in Afghanistan during the last three years.

Williams & Dastych: What sections of the society, apart from the military forces, are the mainstays of Musharraf's support?

Hamid Mir: Initially, many liberals were supporting Musharraf but now a big majority of liberals and fundamentalists are uniting against him. Two major liberal parties, led by two ex-prime ministers, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif, are negotiating with Islamic radicals to launch a countrywide "remove Musharraf" movement.

I believe that Americans have also realized that they are getting a bad name in Pakistan, because they are supporting a President in uniform. That's why they want Musharraf to take off his uniform. But Musharraf is not ready. He knows that the uniform is his real power. He has failed to introduce a popular political ideology as his ultimate source of power. He wrote an article in the Washington Post about enlightened moderation, but, in reality, his enlightenment has become a joke today. He is having a tense relationship with the Americans these days. No doubt that Musharraf also has some powerful political allies. Most of them are big landlords, tribal chiefs, some industrialists and political turncoats. These people are part of our problem; they are not a true solution of our problem. There are also some good people around Musharraf. But they are not the real decision makers. The majority of them will not stand by Musharraf in any difficult situation.

Williams & Dastych: Is there any alternative to President Musharraf's "guided democracy"?

Hamid Mir: I must admit that Pakistan doesn't have any suitable substitute for Musharraf. If he is removed today, we don't have any alternate leader. We already have tested Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif; their hatred against each other provided Musharraf an opportunity to intervene in the country's politics.

Islamic radicals are ruling two provinces of Pakistan. But people there are also dissatisfied with their way of governance. Yet, nobody can deny the fact that the majority of Pakistanis are united on just one point: "Down with America".

Some well wishers to Musharraf think that if he would take off his uniform this year to become the President of the ruling Muslim League, then he could get elected by the parliament very easily. Next year he could go in general elections with his political allies and he could win a good number of seats. This is the most legitimate and suitable way for him to stay in power. Otherwise, he is going to face trouble.

Williams & Dastych: Some US and European journalists have concluded that President Musharraf, in light of the assassination attempts, is a "dead-man walking." What is your reaction to this opinion?

Hamid Mir: I cannot rule out another assassination attempt on the life of President Musharraf. But I am against any kind of violence. I think the real threat to Musharraf is not physical but political. The day three major political alliances (ARD, MMA and PONAM) formally become united and bring only 20 or 30 thousand people to the capital city, it will be very difficult for Musharraf to stay in power. He has been trying his best to divide his political opponents for a long time. But now these politicians have realized that they were playing in the hands of Musharraf.

I know that the head of the Islamist alliance MMA, Qazi Hussein Ahmid, is moving very fast towards a broad-based opposition alliance. He is trying to remove the misunderstandings between Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif. He is also trying to find some people, on whom the opposition could agree as the caretaker government, which would hold new elections after the removal of President Musharraf.

Williams & Dastych: How Pakistan is fighting against the terrorists and the radical Islamist organizations? Is this war effective?

Hamid Mir: Pakistan is not winning its war against terrorism. On the opposite, the country has become more unsafe in last few years - - after the war against terrorism was started. The Pakistanis have seen suicide bombers blowing themselves up in front of them for the first time after 9/11.

There was no trouble in Baluchistan and Waziristan before 9/11. But these areas are burning after 9/11.

In last two years, the Pakistani Army has lost more than 450 soldiers only in the tribal areas, and the Americans have not lost more than 250 soldiers in Afghanistan in the last 4 years. Pro-Taliban and pro- al Qaeda people in the Pakistani tribal areas are gaining strength not because of their ardent religious feelings but by default. The Pakistani Army is operating in tribal areas without a good political strategy.

Growing hatred against America is the biggest problem not only in the tribal areas but also in the urban centers of Pakistan.

Recently, thousands of people came on the roads to protest blasphemous caricatures of Prophet Muhammad. Those protesters raised more slogans against America than against Denmark. Now Bush is the most hated man in Pakistan. Modern and English speaking youth is also becoming part of that anti-American wave.

Williams & Dastych: How real is the threat that radical Islamists eventually could gain control of the government of Pakistan?

Hamid Mir: Haahaaahaaah. Sorry ... I always laugh on that question. International media have failed to understand Pakistan. Islamic radicals have opposed the creation of this country, and they would not be allowed to grab absolute power here in the future. You can't see many bearded men in the big cities of Pakistan, but - for sure - a majority of Pakistanis are anti-American now.

Therefore, don't mix up anti-Americanism with Islamic radicalism. I think Western researchers and journalists should come to Pakistan more often. They will realize that this is one of the most liberal Islamic countries of the World. Yes, there is lot of poverty and illiteracy in the rural and tribal areas of Pakistan; the poverty creates unemployment and the unemployment breeds radicalism. Military extremism is not a solution. The real solution is through schools and colleges. These schools and colleges will only be established when a government answerable to the people will come. A civilian government answerable to a military President cannot understand and resolve these kinds of problems.

Williams & Dastych: Is the nuclear and missile arsenal of Pakistan safe and well protected?

Hamid Mir: I have discussed this issue in detail with Dr. Samar Mubarikmand, who is now looking after the nuclear missile program. He was the person who conducted the first nuclear cold test in 1983. He was also the person who was in charge of hot nuclear tests in 1998. He told me that all our nuclear weapons have secret codes. First of all, nobody can steal them. Secondly if they are stolen, nobody can blast them without knowing the codes. Even if somebody puts a nuclear weapon in a truck and hits the truck against a building, even then there would be no blast. Our nuclear weapons are in safe hands and well protected.

Williams & Dastych: Did the recent disclosure of the worldwide nuclear proliferation by the A.Q. Khan Laboratories harm the international reputation of Pakistan?

Hamid Mir: Definitely. It damaged Pakistan's credibility. But the heart of the matter is that the majority of Pakistanis still consider Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan a great national hero. They think that Dr. Qadeer is just a scapegoat. Pakistani media projected Dr. A.Q. Khan as a hero for a very long time in the past. I tell you that he is a metallurgist not a nuclear scientist. He helped Pakistan with the technology of the uranium enrichment. All the nuclear weapons and missiles were designed and tested by other scientists, who were part of the Atomic Energy Commission of Pakistan, while Dr. Qadeer was running the Kahuta Research Laboratories.

Williams & Dastych: Is Pakistan afraid of Iran's aggressive policy, its nuclear build up, and its support for radical Islamist terrorism?

Hamid Mir: Pakistan started facing problems from Iran immediately after the Khomeini revolution in 1979. Iran tried to export its Shia revolution to all the neighboring countries. Pakistan started supporting the Taliban in 1995, because pro-Iranian armed groups in Afghanistan burned down our Embassy in Kabul.

It was Iran, which helped the Northern Alliance against the Taliban for many years. Ironically, both Iran and America supported the Northern Alliance after 9/11. It was again Iran, which indirectly helped Americans to get rid of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

Iranians wiped out their enemies from Afghanistan and Iraq with the help of Americans.

Iranian intelligence was also involved in some terrorist incidents within Pakistan. The Khatami government in Iran provided some right or wrong information to the IAEA about an alleged Pakistan's secret support to Tehran. The Khatami regime tried to create problems for Pakistan intentionally.

[Former Iranian President Mohammad] Ayatollah Khatami was so close to India that he was the chief guest on the Republic Day of India two years ago. After the fall of the Khatami regime in Iran, Pakistan has developed better relations with Tehran.

The new Iranian regime is more anti-American than anti-Pakistani.

But still some people in Pakistan think that if the American troops were withdrawn from Afghanistan, the Iranians could once again increase their interference in Afghanistan, and they might create problems for Islamabad.

Williams & Dastych: What was the Pakistani reaction to President Bush's recent visit to India, and to the nuclear agreement, granting India a priority?

Hamid Mir: Very negative. The credibility of President Musharraf was damaged at every level. America actually violated the NPT by signing a nuclear deal with India. China also responded negatively to that deal. The anger in public was so visible and so high that Musharraf was forced to criticize the U.S.-Indian nuclear deal. Thirty years ago, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto signed a nuclear agreement with France. It was for energy purposes, but the American President, Jimmy Carter, opposed that. He forced France to cancel the deal in 1977. Bhutto clearly spoke against America in the National Assembly of Pakistan and, after a few weeks, he was thrown into prison by the Pakistani Army. Now the common Pakistanis ask: "Why America has different policy for Pakistan and India?" President Bush has helped anti-American elements in Pakistan by signing the nuclear deal with India. He never spoke to India about the resolution of the Kashmir issue. There are UN Security Council resolutions on Kashmir, which say that India and Pakistan should agree on a plebiscite to decide about the future of Kashmir. Fifty-five years have passed, but these resolutions are not implemented. The Kashmir issue is one of the main sources of spreading extremism and anti-Americanism. Kashmir is like a "Palestine dispute" in South Asia. Bush failed to address both the Kashmir and the Palestine issues.
David M. Dastych, 64, is a veteran international journalist, former intelligence operative (the Polish Intelligence and the CIA). He is presently a free-lance author and David's Media Agency owner, based in Warsaw, Poland.